tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post422027730438477495..comments2023-07-09T07:45:50.552-07:00Comments on Socialism and/or barbarism: An open letter to those who condemn looting (Part one)ECWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-58167080337798860862011-08-17T06:30:06.979-07:002011-08-17T06:30:06.979-07:00This is all pretty great except for opening with o...This is all pretty great except for opening with one of the worst metaphors ever written :)<br /><br />ha and my word verification is "copper"!!cemenTIMentalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12579820272719763038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-3648161494851937852011-08-16T00:33:23.922-07:002011-08-16T00:33:23.922-07:00Dunk:
thanks for the link. However, I'm will...Dunk:<br /><br />thanks for the link. However, I'm willing to bet that a serious investment in either of these things you state<br /><br />"<br /> 1. Learn about the current system<br /> 2. Create a pro-human society with the rest of us<br />"<br /><br />, if taken on seriously, are going to clash pretty heavily with "peace as a method and as a goal, at all times." There are, so to speak, certain objective blockages (for example, policing as such, particularly the kind that was the catalyst for Tottenham) to doing so.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-77867344863173703352011-08-16T00:25:26.446-07:002011-08-16T00:25:26.446-07:00"All this I could understand if only the loot..."All this I could understand if only the looters took blankets and food. "<br /><br />I want to ask, though, as a real question (I am genuinely curious): what would that change for you? What would be different if, to take two version, only looters took blankets or food, or if they only took blankets and food?ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-30179036676380753192011-08-16T00:18:39.174-07:002011-08-16T00:18:39.174-07:00"So people who disagree with you are racist? ..."So people who disagree with you are racist? Is that your usual leftie line?"<br /><br />Are people who disagree with me racist? Not necessarily.<br /><br />Are people who accuse rioters of being "rats" or "dogs", and those who apologize for them, racist and part of a long tradition of demonizing the poor by trying to render them subhuman? Yes, they are.<br /><br />Is that a usual "leftie" response? That would be giving "the left" a lot of credit, some of whom have fallen into the same shit.<br /><br />But is one's relation to those kind of accusations a dividing line, including the kind of line that, in certain moments, was understood as separating something like right and left?<br />Yeah, it is. And we have nothing to talk about with those who don't get that.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-79803892150142772722011-08-16T00:11:10.489-07:002011-08-16T00:11:10.489-07:00"Don't know about you but I've never ..."Don't know about you but I've never met a drug dealer who is doing so to afford "bare necessities". "<br /><br />a. I said "sells drugs," not "drug dealer." There are a lot of people who are part of the drug trade who are not dealers or kingpins. And yes, they often do so because they, and families they might support, cannot afford to live otherwise.<br />b. And if someone deals to get more than "bare necessities," then you are exactly back to the general condition of labor, which very rarely describes the barest necessities. In which case, you would need to explain how and why you understand this as "wrong" in a way that other work is not. And as of yet, I have yet anyone explain this in a way I find convincing.<br />c. A general situation of being cut off from the prospect of making a living in a generally "legal" way, and being routinely harassed and arrested for not following that barred legal way, is different from what individuals do or don't do, of the drug dealers you have or have not met. It's account of an undeniable historical situation. And yes, it is brutal.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-59411705678369531642011-08-15T23:10:02.200-07:002011-08-15T23:10:02.200-07:00"There are some points of difference, it'..."There are some points of difference, it's true. We don't think "these people" are "apes," rats," "dogs". But we believe that you truly see them that way, and that what happens now is not the reason for your belief: it is merely a confirmation of how you've always thought of those who are definitely more poor and often more brown than you."<br /><br />So people who disagree with you are racist? Is that your usual leftie line?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-91944499227727991782011-08-15T23:08:26.199-07:002011-08-15T23:08:26.199-07:00"It is brutal that people are so cut off from..."It is brutal that people are so cut off from access to bare necessities that they have to sell drugs and are consequently jailed for life for doing so."<br /><br />Don't know about you but I've never met a drug dealer who is doing so to afford "bare necessities".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-48985360211130447412011-08-15T02:00:08.159-07:002011-08-15T02:00:08.159-07:00Estoy de acuerdo con que lo de los saqueos y lo de...Estoy de acuerdo con que lo de los saqueos y lo de la violencia extrema es lamentable y deleznable. Ahora bien, habría que preguntarse por qué, aquí y ahora se dan estos acontecimientos, ¿realmente fue por la muerte de un muchacho negro a manos de la policía? Mas bien yo diría que no, eso sólo fue la chispa que encendió la hoguera, la realidad está en la clase de vida y el futuro al que se ve abocada la juventud no sólo de Londres y UK sino del mundo entero, como estamos viendo estos días por TV (España, Israel, Chile, Oriente Medio, Grecia, etc), la violencia inglesa viene dada por un nivel cultural, marginal y deprimido de esa sociedad.<br />Estaremos todos de acuerdo que el canibalismo en sí es malo (cuestión de tabúes en nuestra sociedad), pero todos sabemos que se han dado casos extremos en los que se ha recurrido a él para poder sobrevivir. Quizá nuestra sociedad apretada por el capitalismo salvaje defendido a ultranza por el neoliberalismo se esté fagocitando a sí misma.<br />De acuerdo, lo del robo de electrodomésticos y otros tipos de saqueo, incendios y destrozos es delincuencia pura y dura, sin embargo todo viene dado como producto de una rabia contenida desde largo tiempo atrás. Incitamos a los jóvenes a un mundo de consumo y competición: no son nada si no poseen el último modelo de lo que sea, no son nadie si no trabajan en una actividad muy bien vista y altamente remunerada, pero, al mismo tiempo, el sistema les cierra las puertas de acceso a todo ello. Entonces, ¿qué hacer?, según ellos no les queda más remedio que tomarlo si no se les da la oportunidad de ganarlo.<br />Y mientras tanto, lentamente, como un goteo, la vida se va poniendo más cara, se van disminuyendo o cerrando los presupuestos para estudiar, para los servicios sociales, la ayuda humanitaria, la sanidad, y un largo etc. Además, cada día, la distancia entre ricos y pobres es más larga, empujando así a la tan traída y cacareada clase media a la desaparición.<br />Por tanto, especuladores, capitalistas, banqueros, multinacionales, holdings..., no expriman tanto, no ahoguen, déjense de joder y no serán jodidos, si no, lo de estos días en Tottenhamm será sólo un paseoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-56499665888779181052011-08-14T01:33:35.555-07:002011-08-14T01:33:35.555-07:00All this I could understand if only the looters to...All this I could understand if only the looters took blankets and food.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-52819335954631969232011-08-12T10:26:35.707-07:002011-08-12T10:26:35.707-07:00I think even my friends who, have until now felt t...I think even my friends who, have until now felt that this system is the only one that they can accept in their life, were actually scared by the rioting. I am not saying that there were or are looking for alternatives, but they got scared. And maybe that is needed as we know that we are the sum total of our material experiences, and that fear ranks up there. <br /><br />They were scared enough to come out and have a personal attack at me. Think of it as attacking the messenger. Not an issue for me, and it does indicate that we're on the right track.<br /><br />I hope you find the following URL useful:<br /><br />http://www.realityinfo.org/news/?p=189<br /><br />and the associated links at the bottom of the piece. <br /><br />Peace<br />http://www.realityinfo.orgDunkhttp://www.realityinfo.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-83974880256267052452011-08-12T07:15:50.830-07:002011-08-12T07:15:50.830-07:00Thank you for saying what I wish I had the patienc...Thank you for saying what I wish I had the patience to parse out and the eloquence to disseminate thoroughly.00000https://www.blogger.com/profile/14517195496976131374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-87594809008287336462011-08-11T16:48:57.938-07:002011-08-11T16:48:57.938-07:00"Second, the slow bleeding, coupled with a re..."Second, the slow bleeding, coupled with a recent gutting unprecedented in its severity and rapidity, of the carcass of the welfare state, through attacks on social programs, housing, and pensions."<br /><br />You seem to be under the miasapprehensions that all of these things are natural rights. They are not. In fact in their current form they are themselves supported by brutality - the threats of the state against taxpayers. Given that this situation is only likely to worsen due to various demographic factors, it is clear that an alternative must be found, else the resentment of taxpayers against net benefit recipients can only grow.<br /><br />I don't know what the solution to this is, except that a good start might be a voluntary land tax (voluntary as in - if you don't pay it you lose monopoly rights to that land), coupled with a tax free citizens income for all (reducing resentment).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-64627485287310288262011-08-11T07:37:26.205-07:002011-08-11T07:37:26.205-07:00Helen:
concern understood, but that is in part wh...Helen:<br /><br />concern understood, but that is in part why I'm not interested in talking about the abstract merits of alternative forms of life, indeed.<br /><br />And I think that these days, the constant recourse to the problem of "the positive moment" primarily indicates that we aren't as good as negation as we sometimes tell ourselves. Most of our critiques have the efficacy - in part because of not being material critiques, that is, ones that happen in the flesh and brick - of throwing spitballs at an elephant.<br /><br />In part two of the letter, I take this up more at length.<br /><br />Also, as anon was suggesting, these things aren't abstract to a lot of us. As to the degree to which they disrupt the relations we want to see wrecked, sure, that's a different question. But people get by. And in so doing, they come closer to "constructing" something - at least in the infrastructure developed amongst comrades, in the history they build up, in the building clarity of who's on your side, in the barbarian general line (a necessary Eisenstein sequel if I've ever imagined one) - than most attempts to develop a revolutionary program ex nihilo.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-88133476879884124052011-08-11T07:33:57.016-07:002011-08-11T07:33:57.016-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-79355502560010834952011-08-10T22:13:32.306-07:002011-08-10T22:13:32.306-07:00This is a brilliant analysis that doesn't shy ...This is a brilliant analysis that doesn't shy away from de-romanticizing violence and riots. Spot on. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-35949490953008347912011-08-10T19:50:41.475-07:002011-08-10T19:50:41.475-07:00WIKID ESSAY I AGREE WIV ALL UR POINTS. GNA RMEMBR ...WIKID ESSAY I AGREE WIV ALL UR POINTS. GNA RMEMBR ALL DAT NEX TIME IM LOOTIn DA FUK OUT OF POUNDLAND M8 :)))Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-3249357947021848202011-08-10T19:25:42.295-07:002011-08-10T19:25:42.295-07:00Sheer brilliance.
The setup you construct in you...Sheer brilliance. <br /><br />The setup you construct in your argument (riots/democracy; looting/credit, havoc/class) really sheds light and helps greatly to deepen my understanding the events of the past week in a political and economic context. Your specific detail and illustrations of intersections (esp political and economic) and the above parallels definitively underscores the argument and, I hope, will speak to a great many people. <br /><br />Thank you for the one of the best pieces I have read in a very long time. <br /><br /><br />Sista Resista<br />www.sistersofresistance.orgSista Resistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12015397819157522748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-20512070393863912602011-08-10T09:46:22.049-07:002011-08-10T09:46:22.049-07:00Actually, Helen, some of us are quite good at it b...Actually, Helen, some of us are quite good at it because we practice it every day and it is not abstract to us. <br />We squat, steal, riot, strike, occupy, fight, fuck, and live in conflict with this system.<br /><br />You should try it, it really helps elucidate exactly what should be done and who is on our side.<br /><br />Live like more of a barbarian than you can imagine, than be even worse!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-40658788200340577212011-08-10T08:30:26.235-07:002011-08-10T08:30:26.235-07:00This is a fantastic analysis!
But listen, we are ...This is a fantastic analysis!<br /><br />But listen, we are very good at criticism, at critique. We are poor at the positive counterpart to the negative moment of critique: whether you call that policy, governance, or whatever. If it existed, it could become the meaning of the insurrection (rather than critique, which were are excellent at even in "peaceful" times, becoming its meaning). We don't even know what to call that positive moment, and we don't even know who "we" are. <br /><br />The closest we come is arguing about the abstract merits of various alternative forms of life.<br /><br />We don't flesh them out. We are poor at it, or if we're not poor at it, the good examples of it aren't very pervasive & well-known. Can you do something about it?<br /><br />xx Helen BridwellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-49413715779224262642011-08-10T05:31:54.836-07:002011-08-10T05:31:54.836-07:00tl;drtl;drDan G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-3822634324860799112011-08-10T03:29:54.821-07:002011-08-10T03:29:54.821-07:00What may be a more astute understanding of what un...What may be a more astute understanding of what unnerves many Brits (and ironically has begun to plague the world financial markets and most Western societies) has been the relentless cutting of social services by resident conservative parties. It might be all about reigning in a runaway deficit and heeding the warnings of various central banks, but one has to ask a few questions, did those individuals collecting their unemployment checks and welfare stubs single handily cause the ballooning of the deficit there? Or could we perhaps ask aloud whether it's been a situation of increased military spending and welfare breaks for the corporate elite (never mind the tax cuts for the well to do) that has caused a gutting of public finances, the demise of the manufacturing industry and relocation to the third world and the resultant occurrence of unemployment? <br /><br />How ironic and telling that the two ends of the class divide have begun to invert and feed on themselves. Both may in the end may be reacting to the same thing, the durability of a paradigm that's failing them both.<br /><br />http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/08/how-the-shifting-class-wars-are-now-making-their-way-to-london-streets-and-world-financial-markets/christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08842170946201378093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-57063294151729303812011-08-09T16:58:27.920-07:002011-08-09T16:58:27.920-07:00That speech is still a razor.That speech is still a razor.ECWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02142600295759704786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4571055663184272276.post-1192501383238802782011-08-09T16:37:34.761-07:002011-08-09T16:37:34.761-07:00"Now I wanted to say something about the fact..."Now I wanted to say something about the fact that we have lived over these last two or three summers with agony and we have seen our cities going up in flames. And I would be the first to say that I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white <br />community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say <br />tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."<br /><br />from M.L.K. jr.'s "The Other America"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com